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Mound Warm-Up Opinions Qquote: ''USSSA should be boycotted!! '' September 2, 2009 at 06:49:27 AM Three pitches is ABSURD!! Does that guy not have a son who plays baseball???? Sounds like he is in it for the money only. My son has been in the position of being pulled out of centerfield in the middle of a game and called to the mound--he was given as many pitches as he needed to feel warm before throwing to the first batter. That is how it should be. Safety of the player should be first and foremost. I applaud Ron W. for standing up for all baseball players, even at the expense of his reputation. But this will only help his reputation as a great coach who cares about the players health first. USSSA should be boycotted!! Then let's see how much money they make. Qqupte: ''USSSA should promote all aspects of safety'' September 2, 2009 at 06:25:01 AM Shame on the USSSA for its unjustifiable position in elevating the speed of the games over the arm safety of pitchers. I pitched into college from 6 years old and have a high school senior pitcher/college prospect son. Are we talking saving up to maybe 10 minutes in a game? Schedule the games 15 minutes further apart. The Little League organization places so much importance on pitch count for one main reason - a young pitcher's arm safety. No baseball group could support your position. USSSA is an organization which should promote all aspects of safety to look out for their members. Come on - You can do better than maintain this position. You owe an apology to the Wolforth family. Quote: ''3 pitch limit has happened at several USSSA tournaments'' August 25, 2009 at 10:19:42 AM First of all... GO RON!!! I am a Webball member and have purchased many of Ron's products. I believe you will receive similar responses, as mine, from different parts of the country on this subject. This 3 pitch limit has happened at several USSSA tournaments I have attend. And after several discussions with various tournament directors got me no where... I stopped attending USSSA tournaments. Quote: ''3-pitch max not best remedy'' August 25, 2009 at 07:42:09 AM I'm sure that many people are frustrated by the fact that games take so long and that a lot of the reason is the lack of hustle between innings. However, a 3-pitch maximum is not the best remedy. Getting players to run on and off the field and quit stepping out of the batters box are better solutions that should be addressed. I was frustrated many times by traveling hundreds of miles to play and then were only able to play 4 or 5 innings because of a 1:45 time limit. Baseball has, and always should, be a game played without a clock. Quote: ''5 pitches may be enough'' August 28, 2009 at 11:26:37 AM If my pitchers get limited warm up pitches, I immediately pull my team out of the game. Protecting the pitchers ( kids ) is the first job a coach should take care off. Of course the weather conditions determine if the pitchers need 8 our 5 warm up pitches. On a warm day, 5 pitches may be enough. Quote: ''8 pitches is WAY more than he needs'' August 25, 2009 at 09:13:16 AM I want to expand on my answer to #3 about what Ron should have done at the tournament. As I understand the setting, and with all due respect to him, at this tournament he was just a "dad." He should have voiced his concern about the 3-pitch limit to the team's coach who should have been the ONLY one to talk to tournament officials, umpires, etc. Regardless of the expertise of the "dad," we don't need "daddy ball" to now infect what is supposed to be travel ball at a higher level. That said, I don't think any of us know what the "right" warm-up pitch count is; and has been pointed out, there appears to be no scientific evidence. My son (a HS senior) pitches, and I can tell by what he does that 8 pitches is WAY more than what he needs; his last few tosses are often just lobs to the catcher, which also isn't good. The bottom line? Competitive level youth soccer is WAY ahead of competitive youth baseball in many regards - structure, rules, scheduling, seasons, etc. Until we - all of us involved in competitive youth baseball - get together and agree to establish standards, the for-profit entities WILL make them for us, including pitch counts, etc. Quote: ''a competitive limitation on the pitcher'' September 1, 2009 at 06:14:04 PM The pitcher should throw enough warm-up pitches that he can throw safely at his top velocity on the first live pitch per inning. While it may be dangerous to a pitcher's arm to only throw 3 warm-ups, it is also a competitive limitation on the pitcher. 6-8 pitches, at the pitcher's discretion. Quote: ''a way to get around it.'' August 25, 2009 at 08:39:34 AM Very tough situation. One thing that doesn't seem to really be mentioned that much is that the coaches should have been aware, and like it or not, the pitchers should have been warming up in between innings (i.e. with 2 out) as a way to get around it. Quote: ''about doing the right thing'' August 25, 2009 at 12:54:23 PM As a former "tournament/travel" pitcher myself, this situation brings me dissapointment and sadness. I feel USSSA and their umpires acted irresponsibly, selfishly, and ignorantly. This isn't about setting a number of pitches, but about doing the right thing in looking after these boys. Quote: ''After a $2500.00 MRI...'' August 26, 2009 at 08:13:45 PM My son has dedicated an enormous amount of time and effort to become a successful pitcher. Starting when he was 7 years old (now 14). We soon learned in the very beginning of his desire to become a pitcher how important conditioning and arm care can be. Without a doubt arm injury is the #1 obstacle that has halted the carreers of many (would have been great pitchers). My son was fortunate enough to learn this at a early age. During a tournament my son was pitching in, he had warmed up in the bullpen and was ready to take the mound. This particular day the tournament host were plugging some charities and making announcements over the PA while my son stood on the mound waiting for the game to begin. After a 10 to 15 minute pause the batter stepped into the box and the game began. I could tell from the first pitch that my son was not loose anymore and I was greatly concerned. After facing 5 or 6 batters I knew something definetly was wrong. After the inning was over he walked over to me and said "Dad I can't even hold my Gatorade to take a drink, my elbow hurts". After a $2500.00 MRI we learned that he had hyper-extended his elbow from improper warming up. He sat the bench for the remaining 6 weeks of the season. I don't need to explain how disappointing this was to a kid that devoted his off-season and summer to playing the game. In regards to Ron Wolforth's letter to the USSSA Chairman/Executive Director/CEO. Possibly by some this letter may have seemed somewhat hardlined or threatning. Hopefully after all the smoke clears they will be able to read between the lines. Maybe on the outside looking in this is just a bunch of kids and coaches on a ballfield having fun. Any coach, player or parent that is involved in competative baseball knows that this is far from the truth. These coaches and player's take this game very seriously. The amount of work off the field to be successful is a way of life and takes a tremendous amount of devotion. We have all seen news segments or read articles about arm injuries in young pitcher today. Just ask any sports doctor about the importance of properly conditioning and loosening the arm. What the USSSA Chairman/Executive Director/CEO's need to realize is that they are not dealing with coach Billie Bob Thorton setting on the bench, sucking on a beer and the Bad News Bears. Ron Wolforth is a man that has a track record that speaks for itself. And as far as I'm concerned my respect for Ron has just hit the roof. Ron has stepped up to the plate. And if I were placing money on this, looks like the bases are loaded and it's going to be a grandslam! Quote: ''all the muscles rest, cool off, and tighten'' September 3, 2009 at 12:01:32 PM I have coached little league 12's for 42 years, and am probably the only person in the world who has coached [specific] all-star team for each of those 42 years. I also coach a college age summer league for 32 years. That being said, I can't imagine any sane person could come up with a logical argument for the restriction. To sit in a dugout for 5-10 minutes, in between innings, and have all the muscles/ligaments rest, cool off, and tighten during that time... to not be able to properly ease them back into the full throttle pitching motion is tantamount to athletic stupidity. Have a runner run a 100 meter race, sit out for awhile, and then only allow him 10 seconds to warm up before the next race. Same stupidity, same thing. Quote: ''am greatly disheartened with the USSSA's reaction'' September 2, 2009 at 11:52:11 AM I am a certified athletic trainer and have worked with a variety of athletes, included collegiate baseball players. To limit a pitcher, especially a youth athlete who may not be fully developed on a muscular basis, to only 3 warmup pitches is, in my opinion, placing the athlete at risk of injury. During collegiate games, generally, there is a 1-2 minute timeframe between the ending of one half innning and the start of the other for pitchers to receive a proper warmup. Pitchers need to be initiating a proper warmup before they need to step on the field, but still there is no way in telling exactly how much time remains before the pitcher is to return to the playing field and there is no way to know if a pitcher will immediately need to be removed from a game (due to injury, etc) and the reliever will have to jump in on a moments notice. Quote: ''Are you kidding me!'' September 2, 2009 at 07:14:36 AM Are you kidding me! Coach Wolforth is not about winning and losing but about player development for future years. He and his wife Jill keep young arms in mind when it comes to pitching. I cannot believe the USSSA suspended the family. In my opinion, they just wanted to sweep the matter under the rug and set a "punishment" that is TOTALLY unjust and ridiculous. Ron is a known entity in the baseball world and my feeling is USSSA knows that and did not want this incident exposed but now the opposite has happened. Quote: ''back down and apologize to the Wolforth's'' August 31, 2009 at 06:13:34 AM USSSA should back down and apologize to the Wolforth's and the baseball connumity at-large. USSSA has been an out standing organization in the past, they made a mistake, hope they are mature and big enough to admit that and move on. USSSA has contributed to the baseball communtiy and has a lot to offer, but we will not participate in their tournaments from this time on unless they are willing to admit their mistake and apologize. My personal opinion on warm-up pitches is that a pitcher should have thrown a warm-up bullpen to be ready to pitch a game and that 5-8 pitches on the mound should be enough for him to get the feel of the mound. A pitcher coming in from the field in the middle of an inning, within reason, should be able to throw as many as he needs to warm-up. The extra couple of minutes that it would take for him to throw 12-15 pitches is not going to hurt the game or delay the tournament by it may save a kid from injury. When you put the players safety first, the rest, tournament schedule, game times, etc., does not matter. Quote: ''Being an old high school baseball coach'' September 4, 2009 at 09:55:30 AM The limit of course is wrong. The big concern is the USSSA's handling of this situation. They are so concerned with "litigation" because of a prevalent mindset nowadays of C Y A. (cover your ass) They went on the offensive to shift attention away from their obvious mistake. Being an old high school baseball coach I was always concerned with a kid's arm, whether it be warmup or number of pitches in a game. Lost a couple of games because of taking a pitcher out when he got close to his limit. For the USSA to have this ridiculous 3 pitch limit for warmup is the most absurd thing I have ever heard of. IT IS VERY APPARENT THAT THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH GAME LOGISTICS THAN WITH TAKING CARE OF THE KIDS IN THEIR CHARGE. I HAVE NOT MET COACH WOLFORTH BUT WILL BE SENDING MY SON TO HIS CAMP NEXT SUMMER TO BE TAUGHT BY A COACH'S COACH. G.A.T.A. COACH WOLFORTH (Get After Their Ass) Quote: ''Coach Wolforth did the right thing'' August 25, 2009 at 09:32:18 AM I think Coach Wolforth did the right thing by standing up to USSSA. USSSA should not be able to change a rule when the rule book states 8 pitches or 1 minute. Just as there is no scientific evidence yet, USSSA doesn't have the anything to back them up to warrant changing the warm-up pitch count. Without the scientific backing, USSSA is putting them at liability risk. Each pitcher is different so 3 pitches my work for 1 pitcher but another pitcher may need 5, or 8. Allowing 1 minute will allow the pitcher to do what is comfortable for them. Although there is no evidence of this being a risk/safety factor, those of us who have pitched know that out muscles get tight when we wait to get out on the mound again. Just ask Joba Chamberlin when he had to wait 41 minutes to get on the mound earlier in August. What about the safety/risk factor for the batters? I would expect to see an increase of hit batters if pitchers only get 3 warm-up pitches. What this all comes down to is money. Games will go quicker and USSSA will make the same or more money. After all, USSSA is a business. Quote: ''Coach Wolforth responded rightly'' September 3, 2009 at 12:52:46 AM As the mother of a high school pitcher, I have come to realize the importance of having the entire body ready and warm to throw a ball. Hopefully, some bull pen time would have already taken place along with other warm up exercises but if that is not the case, a minimum of 10 to 12 pitches should be allowed to help reduce the risk of injury to the arm and shoulder. Coach Wolforth responded rightly and I am certainly glad that his efforts to improve the situation is being made known. Quote: ''coaches don't know how to keep their pitchers warm'' August 25, 2009 at 05:59:17 PM One of the main problem is that coaches don't know how to keep their pitchers warm between innings. At the youth level, innings are long and dragged out with a lot of runs, requiring current pitchers to cool down. Two minutes allowed time, would allow a pitcher 10 or 12 pitches to warm again. Quote: ''common sense goes out the window'' August 25, 2009 at 08:29:41 PM Never being a fan of taking young pitchers from the field to pitch I would have thought that youth travel teams in America which I thought would carry at least 14 players would have a policy were by all pitchers must come from the bench. Even down here in Australia our Rep teams as they are called (same as your travel teams) the policy is that the pitcher must come from the bench and be fully warmed up. Even then they are allowed 8 warm up pitch's from the mound. And Yes I know that we don't have the numbers competing at the tournament's here like you do over there. It would appear that this 3 pitch warm up rule was made up by short sighted officials who should know better than to put at risk young players arms. The rule here covers 12,14 and 16 years of age groups. The decision by the USSSA to suspend the Wolforths just goes to show that when some people are given a little power to make decisions common sense goes out the window. Talk about the untouchables!! Don't worry we have them here too, if you don't bow and scrape to them you are branded a trouble maker because you don't think like them. As far suitable number of warm up pitch's.If a pitcher has warmed up in the bullpen, by that I mean a proper dynamic warm up and then a suitable amount of throws before hand 5 pitch's from the mound is sufficient. I believe that without a proper warm up 5 or 8 pitch's from the mound is not going to allow them to pitch at there best and also put them at risk of doing damag to their young bodies. The welfare of young players should be the foremost thing that we as so called adults should always be aware of. Here's hoping common sense prevails and the USSSA can take their heads out of the sand and give the leadership for which it is in power to do and look after the welfare of the youth players of today. I would like to think that the Wolforth's suspension is soon lifted and they can get back to normal life. Quote: ''could actually increase the number of pitches'' August 25, 2009 at 09:41:33 AM Pitchers need to get used to the mound and find their zone. They face various risks from twisting an ankle or knee to throwing with bad form causing shoulder or elbow problems. Not giving a pitcher their warm-up tosses could actually increase the number of pitches that they would need to throw in an inning and even extend the time of the game...contrary to what the umpires were trying to accomplish. Quote: ''decisions should never be made at the risk of a child'' September 1, 2009 at 02:27:09 PM I understand the whole notion of speed up because there's nothing like playing in a tnmt and spending the money we do, not to play baseball. But decisions should never be made at the risk of a child - my biggest fear as a coach is not wanting to be that coach that makes a decision that ends up hurting one of my players for the rest of their lives. If an organization is worried about time, plan accordingly, but don't try to save time at the expense, or potenital expense, of a child's safety. If a pitcher doesn't need warm-ups, why were the instituted however many years ago at every level?? Quote: ''didn't mess around with fixing the mound'' August 25, 2009 at 06:20:39 PM Iowa HS rules allow 5 pitches or 1 minute which ever comes first (after the 1st inning)and that is from the moment of the last out to "batter up". With the 5 pitch/1 minute rule, there has been no increase in pitching injuries that I am aware of. As an Iowa HS umpire, I enforce it with a common sense approach and I feel most umpires do so. There have been times when I only allowed 3 pitches because the pitcher took WAY too much time doing things not conducive to what he needed to be doing but it happens very rarely as they get the message. I did not see any adverse affects by doing so. As a former HS and college pitcher in the Big 8 conference back in the day, I don't recall an umpire ever cutting me off in my warm up routine which consisted of throwing 2 or 3 fastballs, 2 or 3 curveballs, 2 cutters and 2 change-ups, and a fastball out of the stretch. I threw between 8 to 9 pitches and didn't mess around with fixing the mound when I got out there. For youths, 6 to 9 pitches should be adequate as long as they get after it. I see nothing wrong with a time limit that should allow a pitcher enough time to throw the necessary warm up pitches needed to get properly loosened up. There are all kinds of factors in how many pitches may be required to get a pitcher loosened up: weather, length of inning just completed, etc., etc. So there may not be a number that works for everyone, but 1 to 2 minutes should be enough time to get however many pitches a pitcher needs to throw to get loosened up. Quote: ''doubt that you could convince MLB'' August 25, 2009 at 11:48:56 AM You really don't need the ASMI as there is already an organization that keeps records of injuries and protects its players...Major League Baseball. I doubt that you could convince MLB that in order to speed up the game pitchers would only be allowed 3 warm-up throws. This is a safety issue and USSSA should be ashamed that they are enforcing a policy that could lead to injury of young ball players. Quote: ''Every mound has a different 'feel''' August 25, 2009 at 01:30:24 PM IMO the 8 pitch rule does more than give a pitcher time to warm up, it also gets him acclamated to an unfamiliar mound and gives him time to address any concerns such as any holes or uneven spots around the landing area. Every mound has a different 'feel' and pitching cold, in the middle of a game, on an unfamiliar mound is a recipe for disaster, not only from an injury aspect, but from a timesaving one also. When a pitcher is not ready and uncomortable he will most likely give up more hits and/or walks, thus extending the game even more, a direct contradiction to the intent of the rule! Quote: ''every year I see more commercialization'' August 25, 2009 at 11:33:37 AM I manage a 18U team and have managed w/in USSSA approx from the time of the start of USSSA. Initially the USSSA seemed to be a good idea/organization. The AA/AAA/Major format was/is a great thing for kids, in that they can play competition that is approx equal to their abilities. However, every year I see more and more commercialization and focus on the tournaments "profit factor". While the safety factor of the 3 pitch warm up is undisputable, I feel it is but another symptom of the USSSA's achilles heel, which is the greed that has overcome the USSSA. Tournaments rained out mid Saturday, with no refunds. Tournaments stacked with teams that play "down" so they can win the tournaments or equally teams that are so overmatched no one gets any value. If a team can find the entry fee, sign em up ! Tournaments that have a 1hr 45 min time limit on High School age kids. Since when is the overdriving concern that the game time not be extended. If the tourny directors and umpires are in such a big hurry to get it over with, perhaps they should be working at the local 7/11 store. They can punch a clock and get their time, if they dont care about baseball anymore than that, I would prefer they not be involved. Just this summer the local USSSA rep decided to add 3 AAA teams to the AA state championship. Despite objections, nine(9) AA teams were subjected to the greed of acquiring fees from 3 more AAA teams. Surprise ! the AAA teams played in the finals meanwhile nine other teams (over 100 kids) got a lesson in "adult" run baseball. I am all for capitalism, but I just dreamed that little league baseball would not be overcome by the profit picture. It is time the USSSA realign their priorities, it is obviously lacking leadership from the top down through the local levels. Until the managers/parents = (customers) demand better, the USSSA is unlikely to get up off their thrones to make any changes. Quote: ''everyone in youth baseball needs to take a stand'' September 1, 2009 at 02:29:13 PM Limiting the amount of warm-up pitches between innings is a huge concern of mine. The only reason it is done is to speed up the game so that more teams can play and more money is made at tournaments. The safety of the kids plays no role in the decision to limit pitches between innings. I have seen too many kids with hurt arms from lack of proper warm-up. I think something needs to be done about it. Since USSSA has decided to take the actions they have I feel everyone involved in youth baseball needs to take a stand against them. They should have listened to Ron Wolforth and admitted making a mistake and taking actions to ensure that mistake wouldn't happen again. They have opened up a can of worms and it is spreading fast. Quote: ''familiarity with the mound in each inning'' August 31, 2009 at 05:44:26 AM The current standard seems to work (8 pitches for new pitcher entering game and 5 pitches for pitcher returning to the mound) BTW that was not clear in the Q above. Another aspect of the warm up is gaining familiarity with the mound in each inning - grooming the mound and getting a feel for its physical characteristics from inning to inning which change and affect throwing motion and intuitively could throwing motion, accuracy etc. Quote: ''five warm-up throws ... was NOT enough'' September 1, 2009 at 10:10:47 PM Last December, during a USSSA tournament, my 14-year old son was pulled of 1st base to try and save a game. We had not anticipated that he would pitch on Saturday, as he always pitches on Sunday. He was rushed through his warm-up pitches and I grew very worried. I know he faithfully executes a rigorous warm-up before he starts a game, and the five warm-up throws he was allowed was NOT enough. Quote: ''for the love of the game?'' August 25, 2009 at 08:49:30 AM When select tournament baseball is involved, the safety of the child athlete should always be paramount. Unfortunately, when it comes to pitching, it rarely is. The goals of organizations and sanctioning bodies is primarily for gains in finances and prestige. The belief that participation in these events will lead to college scholarship opportunities for young athletes is a canard promoted by these tournament organizers and bought into by coaches and parents. The pressure to succeed at the tournament level is high for these youngsters. What ever happened to playing baseball for the love of the game? Quote: ''goes against common sense'' September 2, 2009 at 08:03:12 AM I have studied with many pitching experts all over the country and this is downright stupid, goes against common sense, and all accepted physical training protocol for all sports. If the games last just a bit longer then the families will be at the park longer and sell more consessions. Quote: ''Have to keep the game going'' August 24, 2009 at 03:10:21 PM I believe each kid is different and that sometimes 8 warmup pitches is not enough. i do understand that you have to keep the game going and on time.so it is the coaches/parents responsibilty to make sure they are good to go before they take the mound but each athlete still needs a certain amount of time to warmup on the mound.to get focused on the mound in game environment in front of everyone not just in bullpen.and yes i do see in certain athletes that little or no warmup pitches does affect some kids a lot.not given the time to warm up and get FOCUSED will result in more pitches thrown (wild pitches).the end result is the kid has to throw more pitches to get thru the game.so yes that puts the kid at risk!i will not stop coaching a utrip team because that is all we have here in arkansas that is competitive.but i will make sure that i always have a kid in the bullpen.brings me to think about all the new coaches that dont know any better.what if they think it is the norm to only allow 3 warmup pitches before an outing.and they bring that home to there local league and tell everyone that this is how it is done. Quote: ''health and safety should always be a #1 priority'' August 25, 2009 at 10:17:02 AM The game is for the kids and their health and safety should always be a #1 priority. Until proven that fewer than 8 pitches (or until a pitcher is ready if less) is not at all harmful to a young pitchers arm, the rule should stay as is. If a major league player needs 8, then certainly a young pitcher needs as many. Keep fighting the fight -- USSSA is absolutely wrong in their stance and how they have handled this matter. Quote: ''his integrity is beyond reproach'' September 1, 2009 at 02:17:29 PM Sounds to me that USSSA needs to be managed by baseball people and not by some idiot attorney. It speaks volumes to me when an organization's first response to a concern over a child's safety is met with a fear over litigation instead of addressing the concern itself. While the uninformed might perceive Coach Wolforth's reaction as excessive, as someone who has met and worked with him personally, his integrity is beyond reproach. I also agree with other comments regarding the 'business' of tournament baseball. I for one would rather play an entire game rather than be subjected to a time clock. It is a significant undertaking for most participants to play in these events and the first priorty should be to the quality of that experience and out of respect for the game in the manner in which it is meant to be played. USSSA has completely 'dropped the ball' on this one and the suspension of the Wolforth family is an embarrassment to their organization. I suspect that their reaction to the coach's remarks would not have been so ridiculous had this been some other parent without Mr. Wolforth's credentials. I would strongly recommend that USSSA immediately re-instate the Wolforths after apologizing to them, fix their pitching policy, and fire their 'attorney'. Quote: ''His offer to work with them'' August 25, 2009 at 09:13:38 AM It is shocking that an organization would react in the way they did, suspending this father for expressing his opinion. His offer to work with them to address the concerns was more than generous. It is well-documented that lack of adequate warmup contributes to injuries. This is not a good way to try to speed up the games. Quote: ''how quickly the USSSA ''lawyered up'' August 31, 2009 at 06:56:10 AM I believe it was both shocking and upsetting how quickly the USSSA 'lawyered up' and initiated protection on itself, rather than just "talking it out" like adults, the exact way the Wolworth's attempted to. We discuss often how professional athletes are looked upon as role models for our developing children, and yet here is an entire organization acting like bullies that can do no wrong and refuse to reverse (or even discuss) a sensitive decision regardless of the backlash. Quote: ''Hustle on and hustle off.'' August 25, 2009 at 11:36:10 AM When a decision like this is made and put into effect ( 3 pitch warm up). I always ask the question...Why? Anytime it gets in the way of a players safety or well being we need to reassess immediately. Baseball is a game of skill and strategy. Time clock is not one of them. Hustle on and hustle off. If we have to go farther than that we have missed the point. We are to the point that we may have to look at how many games should be played safely in a certain time period. If there are too many games to be played...a players safety should not be forfeited. Take fewer teams. Use more days for the tournament. Right now the USSSA is making decisions using dangerous and incorrect logic. Keep the game of baseball and the players first when making these decisions and the right decision we follow!! Quote: ''I am angered by the attitude'' September 2, 2009 at 06:09:37 AM I own and operate a youth baseball training facility. We work with a good number of pitchers at DDI and are always diligent in our efforts to protect their arms. Teaching a good exercise regimen, monitoring a good stretching routine, warming them up and teaching them to use their legs and a proper arm slot are all things we do to protect the kids arms while helping them to become better pitchers. I consider warming up to be extremely important to both performance and safety. It isn't any real surprise to find negligent and irresponsible things taking place in games or even practices, however; to encounter a situation where a large organization like the USSSA has actually instituted a policy that dictates negligence ... that should anger every parent, coach and trainer to no end. Quote: ''I don't like USSSA anyway.'' August 25, 2009 at 09:04:53 AM I don't like USSSA anyway. Their efforts have destroyed league ball and created an elite sport that excludes many kids from participating in baseball. The eight pitches are tradition and USSSA destroys tradition. Some pitchers need 8, some need 3. It depends on the length of innings, etc.The standard should be 8 an always available if needed. Quote: ''I have a son that pitches professionally'' September 2, 2009 at 12:16:52 PM Very dangerous rule in my opinion. I have a son that pitches professionally and if he was asked to do that coming up through amateur ball he/I would have refused to allow him to pitch. Period. If the USSSA is trying to speed up the game, keep the batters in the batters box between pitches and put a clock on the pitchers between each pitch. Putting kids health at risk is criminal. Quote: ''I have pitched for the past 20 years'' September 3, 2009 at 07:11:46 AM I have my Doctorate in Physical Therapy and I'm a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. I specialize in sports medicine. I have pitched for the past 20 years, trained pitchers for the past 4 years, attended several pitching seminars and spent much of my spare time studying pitching. I am in agreement with Coach Ron Wolforth. I believe that rules made to affect any aspect of the game should be analyzed closely to determine how it will affect the participants. Strictly from an experience standpoint, being involved in pitching and being a pitcher myself I can say that 8 pitches is a realistic maximum for number of warm-up pitches. 3 warm-up pitches just is not realistic. I hope that this matter is resolved in the favor of doing everything possible to decrease injuries to young pitchers. Quote: ''I really don't favor any limit'' September 4, 2009 at 09:52:10 AM My son seems to he knows when he is ready. Sometimes thats after 3 or 4 warm-ups & sometimes 7 or 8. So I guess I really don't favor any limit..just let them warm-up until they're ready. If they are looking for ways to speed up the game consider a rule requiring the catcher/pitcher to call their own game. Coaches signaling in every pitch slows the game a lot more than a couple extra warm-up pitches & I question whether this practice benefits the kids to begin with. Quote: ''I think parents should be banned'' August 25, 2009 at 03:45:13 PM This is NUTS. This is about kids playing a game. Safety is paramount. I'm 57. We never had time limits or pitch counts. We played 7 innings and I was mad we didn't play 9 like the big guys. Let the kids play. Sometimes I think parents should be banned from interfering with the boys. How are they suppose to learn decision making skills or to think for themselves. Leave The Kids Alone. Let them grow up to be MEN. Before it's too late. Quote: ''I will never ,,, encourage teams to attend USSSA'' September 2, 2009 at 08:10:33 AM It is absurd to limit the number of pitches due to the fact that USSSA brought more teams into the tournament (read: more $$$). Is it the players fault that the tourney directors overextended the number of teams and now time is an issue? So why do they feel to speed up games they should limit the number of pitches between innings? I've seen plenty of umpires take their own time between innings (talking to coaches, getting water, etc) where there has been a waste of time. At any rate, I will never support or encourage teams to attend USSSA sporting activities as long as this process is in place. Quote: ''I would like some science'' August 25, 2009 at 10:45:54 AM I would like some science to back up the # of pitches. Quote: ''I would not hesitate to challenge the umps'' September 1, 2009 at 07:52:30 PM My son has been playing and pitching in Usssa since he was 9 years old,,,,I believe that this is a very harmful action and if he was coming in for relief and was only allowed 3 pitches to warm up I would not hesitate to challenge the umps........What in the world were they thinking Quote: ''inappropriate and unnecessarily imflammatory'' August 25, 2009 at 10:44:47 AM There are two issues here. The USSSA limiting warm-up pitches to 3 is wrong, and how they went about it is wrong. No question. THe second issue is how Ron chose to address this situation, and his communication with the USSSA as well as with media outlets is inappropriate and unnecessarily imflammatory. If he re-read those efforts he might gain some insight into why the USSSA kept responding with comments on litigation. The worthiness of the cause does not reduce the importance of effective communication. Quote: ''indiscriminate rule changes and dictatorial attitude'' September 1, 2009 at 01:32:26 PM As a USSSA coach I completely agree with Coach Wolforth. USSSA's reaction however is typical of what I have seen in terms of their indiscriminate rule changes and dictatorial methodologies and attitude towards players and coaches. This group is completely self serving and has lost their way. Quote: ''It appears as if USSSA overbooked'' September 1, 2009 at 01:45:52 PM As a coach, umpire, and parent, I find this action to be very selfish on the part of the umpire/tournament director and not in the best interest of the player/child. We are supposed to be in it for the kids! When one acts in a manner that conflicts with that, then they should not be trusted with our kids!!! It appears as if USSSA overbooked their tournament and was only interested in the money that could be generated. Once the money was gathered, then there were decisions made to speed up the game that did not take arm care/ safety of the pitchers into consideration. The USSSA response was even worse. What arrogance!!! If we let them respond the way they did to Mr. Wolforth without voicing our displeasure, then you can absolutely believe we will be treated the same way!!! Quote: ''limt/eliminate coaches signals'' August 25, 2009 at 08:57:52 AM I cannot believe they would limit pitches to speed up a game... I would rather see them limit/eliminate coaches signals to the batter (batter stepping out). The only way an umpire should be able to limit pitches is if the pitcher is deliberately wasting time during his 8 warm-up pitches, (we play in some tournaments where there is a game time limit and the team in the lead will waste time to win a game by running out the clock... and this ain't football.) An injury could potentially end a young pitchers career ... and who's to say he wouldn't be worth millions of dollars a year! Keep up the fight, this cannot be something that they sweep under the rug. Quote: ''lost a large portion of patronage'' August 31, 2009 at 03:07:07 PM This another classic act by USSSA. They overcame AAU in popularity and has now gotten big headed in their reasoning on issues. Here in Northern Virginia they have lost a large portion of patronage to Nations Baseball. Quote: ''maybe USSSA will see it is not about the money'' September 3, 2009 at 07:19:37 AM This is a safety concern for my child and with all of the arm problems throughout the country, I believe they need a minimum of 8 pitches to make sure they are warmed and ready. I respect any coach or organization that is willing to stand up for our youth. Great job Coach Wolforth and maybe USSSA will see that it is not about the money but about our children. Quote: ''Money is winning out over common sense and kids!'' September 1, 2009 at 07:32:00 PM I coach the [names removed] baseball teams. This incident is another situation where the organization hosting the event puts their own interest (getting in as many games as possible in the shortest time $$$$) ahead of the players interest and safety! AAU actually started a bracket game in 11 yr world series to resume at 7am!! Even though the event was going to finish in early afternoon. Could it be a field rental issue? $$$. How about all the single elimination brackets. Not leading often to the best team winning, buy always to the fewest possible games for the organizers!! $$$. How about USSSA 9 inning per tournament pitching limit on 11 yr olds in a single weekend!!!!! Money is winning out over common sense and kids! Quote: ''More games in less time!'' September 1, 2009 at 02:45:34 PM It sounds like a time issue to me and if USSSA is involved it has also got to be a money issue. More games in less time! There are not a lot of organizations that are truly concerned about the well being of our young ball players. If so more organizations would we run like the Little League Association. Not that they have all the answers (I do not manage a team that is associated with the Little League) but they do seem genuinely concerned about the players (pitch count, break away bases). Quote: ''more worried about getting sued'' September 1, 2009 at 01:34:37 PM I think it is ridiculous for a the Executives of a youth baseball league not consider the concerns of coaches, parents and especially subject matter experts. It sounds like the USSSA is more worried about getting sued then the health of our young athletes. I support Coach Wolforth and WeBall.com in this stance. Also, I am the CFO for a company that does over a billion in revenue and the correct process would be to evaluate all information that is brought to my attention and then discuss that information with the board of directors or other governing body and make the best decision as it relates to the health of our young athletes. Quote: ''moving games along to increase their revenue. September 2, 2009 at 08:10:33 AM As a youth baseball coach for more than a decade I find the USSSA warm-up pitch limitation and the Wolforth families subsequent suspension from USSSA play, both ridiculous and infuriating. It is so clear to me that USSSA's primary interest is NOT in the continued health of young arms, but rather in moving games along in order to increase their revenue. Shorter game durations enable them to play more games on any field, on any given day and generate more revenue. USSSA needs to issue an immediate apology to the Wolforth family and simply state that they have every intention of abiding by their own rules that provide an 8 pitch warm-up for pitchers between innings. This very simple solution should have been enacted immediately upon hearing of the problem. USSSA could have avoided being exposed as a corporate bully and the resulting tarnish of its brand. Embarassing! Quote: ''Multiple ways to save the 1 minute'' August 25, 2009 at 08:24:45 AM As an umpire doing hs and college games in the Chicago area, there are ways to move the game along due to approaching darkness,rain or even time limits. I'll often tell the catcher not to throw the ball around on strikeouts, or get the batter to stay in the box instead of leaving the box after every pitch like he sees on tv. I'll also tell the teams to hustle a little bit more in between innings, yet have never taken away warm up pitches either in between innings or when a new pitcher is brought in. Heck in a tourney, you could cut down on mound visits, 2nd mound visit in a game and the pitcher is lifted, make sure courtesy runners are ready, there's multiple ways to save the 1 minute per inning they saved my shaving off 5 warm up pitches..how about the insane batter signs coming from the 3rd base couch that last 20 seconds on 3-2 count, 2 outs and the bases empty..duh! Quote: ''no harm in allowing eight pitches'' September 2, 2009 at 01:08:19 PM While I don't believe serious injury will result solely because someone only gets three warm up pitches, it certainly increases the risk. There is no harm in allowing eight pitches and the only reason not to is time (which equals money). Time or Money should never stand in the way of the safety of our children. There are already too many Tommy John surgeries and over-use injuries in young atheletes. Quote: ''no real scientific proof'' August 25, 2009 at 08:54:11 AM I may be mistaken, but Ron Wolforth, regardless of his amazing credentials and knowledge, was a parent at this tournament. The coaches were made aware of this rule. I believe if Ron had issue with the rule, he should take it to his son's coach for letting the team play in the tournament. The reference he makes about the strike zone shrinking, leads me to believe that if they had better success, the issue never would have been pressed. A better approach would have been to have a group of actual coaches (especially from the winning team) write a group protest to USSSA. I am involved in the upper management of state soccer. I will listen to group requests, and formal accusations, but they have to be from coaches or officials directly involved in the incident. Every parent has an opinion. Unfortunately, they don't count in a case like this. It sounds to me like regardless of the rule, the pitchers found the loophole. With no real scientific proof that only throwing 3 warm ups will cause harm, you can't use that as a platform. What if the next guy says you should have 30 warm up pitches or it will cause harm? Once again, everyone has an opinion. They just didn't count in this case either. Ron's team did have a choice to be in the tournament. They did have a chance and a responsibility to their players to leave the tournament when safety became an issue. It wasn't USSSA's issue. Quote: ''not worth the risk of injury'' September 1, 2009 at 02:15:54 PM I am not a pitching coach. I am the father of a pitcher. I have seen young pitchers injured because of too little warmup, particularly when playing in colder weather. (We played in Canada for a while). The concept of limiting the warmups to a maximum of three makes them virtually worthless. Further, this will not significantly speed up the game. The current rules provide for 1 minute of warmup. If a typical game sees 3 pitching changes per team and NO warmup was allowed, this would change the length of the game by 6 minutes. This is certainly not worth the risk of injury. Quote: ''nothing more than a cash cow'' September 1, 2009 at 08:35:51 PM USSSA is nothing more than a cash cow for a select few who organize these tourneys. They have no concern whatsoever for the safety and welfare of the pitchers participating in their tourneys. First and foremost their formats are abuse in themselves(5-6 games in two days). Now they are abandoning common sense just to speed games up so that they can get games finished in a more timely manner. Not too mention there is no real competition in these USSSA World Series, meaning all you have to do to qualify for a USSSA World Series is pay your money or play in enough tourneys to gain enough points to qualify. What a joke. Quote: ''outrageous and imposes an unnecessary risk'' September 1, 2009 at 06:08:08 PM Imposing this low number pitch count when coming in "cold" in the game is outrageous and imposes an unnecessary risk on the pitcher. I view this as gross negilent on the USSSA's decison making when there is already quite a bit of evidence and study on the subject available to all in this field. I'm a Strength and Conditioning Coach, Personal Fitness Trainer and Collegiate Pitching Coach with over 15 years of study in this area... but this is not rocket science. You must warm the body for muscles to safely perform/stretch, etc. The true answer is the Pitcher must feel ready to pitch before doing so. An Eight pitch MINIMUM would enable his arm to be used enough to get some blood flow and strech out a little before throwing 100%. Three pitches just wont be enough based on most cases in my opinion. Weighing all information available, including studies made by the ASMI, it would seem very easy to error on whats safest for the young players of the game. How is this USSSA decision in the best interest of safety for the players?? It isn't! Plain and simple. Quote: ''Perhaps litigation would be in order'' September 1, 2009 at 10:40:36 PM As a former Little League coach, and as an attorney, I heartily agree with the Wolforths' handling of the situation, and find it hard to believe that USSSA would behave as they have done so far. Perhaps litigation would be in order to seek a restraining order against imposition of the 3-pitch limit on medical grounds as a potential health hazard for participants. Quote: ''Power of stupid people'' August 25, 2009 at 08:21:31 AM It is hard to believe USSSA is taking this position. I guess it is true that you should never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers. Quote: ''put players at-risk for future injuries'' August 25, 2009 at 08:34:04 AM I believe that what the USSSA has handled themselves in this manner is what is wrong with youth sports. They have taken a simple tournament to help build young players and have put players at-risk for future injuries. What they neglect to do is look at the chances for injury down the road, not necessarily the immediate future. Once challenged, the USSSA responded with force on the issue (which is common when somebody knows they are wrong and don't want to be challenged) instead of re-examining what happend at the Elite 32 tournament. Baseball is a great game, but people do a great job screwing it up. Quote: ''reminded why we're here in the first place'' August 25, 2009 at 02:42:30 PM It is my firm belief that there's far too much emphasis on speeding up the game..getting the games in..and mindless rules as things are right now..."running for the catcher"..."one infield per tournament"...now we limit warm up pitches. Perhaps catchers should not be allowed to thrown down to second as the throw might go into the outfield and slow down the game. Tournaments and playoff series are still about boys playing baseball not adults flexing their bureaucratic muscle. Apparently someone needs to be reminded why we're here in the first place. Limiting a pitcher to 3 warmup pitches not only adversely effects the pitcher but the infield and outfield get a forshortened warm up as well. This is an injury looking for a place to happen. Is it possible that limiting warmup pitches means pitchers run more deep counts thus negating the 13 odd minutes per game saved? I have never known an umpire who would not do whatever it takes to shorten a game and "get outta here!" I firmly believe that if you dig deep enough you'll find an umpire at the bottom of all this nonsense! Quote: ''Ron always puts the player first'' September 1, 2009 at 04:41:22 PM My name is Nancy Dearden from Gainesville Florida. My son, Matt Dearden has worked with Ron for the past three years. I completely trust Ron and believe he has been instrumental to my son's success. Ron always puts the player first and I support him 100% It is ridiculous to think 3 pitches is sufficient for a warm-up no matter what age the pitcher is. My son is 17 so I have seen alot of crazy things in all the years he has played baseball,but nothing as crazy as three pitches to warm up. Please let me know what else I can do to support Ron and his family.I agree with Ron and I would have handled the situation in the same way he did. If the USSSA is suspending Ron from their events then they will lose all credibility. If the USSSA only cares about money and not about the player, why would any parent want there child subjected to such treatment? Quote: ''Rush,Rush,Rush'' August 31, 2009 at 07:46:49 PM Absolutely unbelievable and just plain simply unsafe to have the limit at three.It should be eight .Why are people always trying to speed up this great game.Like everything else in today's Western society,Rush,Rush,Rush.If I am playing,coaching or watching I am doing it to relax and enjoy this great pasttime. Apparently the people running this tourny are not doing it for the love of the game and are risking the safety of youthful arms. They can't be knowledgeable baseball people or when confronted, with just a little thought, they would have admitted wrong and made changes to a huge mistake. Quote: ''sad when money comes first'' August 25, 2009 at 08:34:00 AM I am a mother of a 10year old, who wants to play for a long time, I find it sad to see the USSSA put profits ahead of a child's well being. I am active in my child's sports and I am sorry but unless my child could warm up with the right amount of pitches, I would have to step in and not let my son play at the tournament, No use throwing his future away due to some organization who want's to speed up games just to make more of a profit. It sad when money comes first, and a sport that's suppose to be for the kids is no longer. Quote: ''safety for the kids is paramount'' September 2, 2009 at 07:35:28 AM Ex parent of USSSA. I just believe safety for the kids is paramount. In our area we have limited club ball choices. So the coaches should learn the stall techniques if necessary for arm safety. And by the way there are a lot of coaches that don't even get it.(including HS baseball) They want to win at all costs. Quote: ''seek the evidence'' September 1, 2009 at 06:51:25 PM For some players, 8 may be too many - how long have they been in, how do they feel? For others, the game situation and their confidence level may need all 8. Scientific evidence - not 'gut' judgment, even as I just gave my 'gut' opinion, is what we should go by. If the evidence doesn't exist, we shouldn't make dramatic changes unless the evidence is obvious. "Obvious" would equate to multiple injuries with one thing in common. Prevalence. Until then, seek the evidence. The game has come a long way, and this distance is based on the science of the game and understanding the players' physiology. That's important to remember. Quote: ''short sighted approach of USSSA'' September 1, 2009 at 01:22:36 PM I can't believe the short sighted approach of USSSA. The fact that their state directors are always turning over (at least in the NW) and that the organization can't give a clear and consistent answer to anything... It shows the state of the organization. With competition gearing up in many other competing organizations... I would say they may continue to lose ground every year. Safety first! Time second. Quote: ''Stick to your guns Ron, kids first.'' September 1, 2009 at 05:23:24 PM I believe Coach Wolforth to be 100% correct and I back him in every aspect. As a coach from t-ball to American Legion to a pitching instructor, the 3 pitch limit for a warm up is a joke. It is for no other purpose than for USSSA to speed up the game in my opinion. It throws out the window the safety of the pitcher, especially one that has to replace a pitcher injured during the inning. Stick to your guns Ron, kids first. I'll bet if the games were shown on TV the 3 warmup limit would not be implemented. TV commercials and money would dictate that. USSSA doesn't care about the kids, only themselves. Best of luck and thanks for the opportunity to present my opinion. Quote: ''stick to your principles'' September 1, 2009 at 08:52:22 PM Putting the interests of a tournament above the safety of the player is just wrong. Money or not, speeding the game up or not, this game is about sportmanship and safety as well as athletic excellence and it would appear that USSSA executives are backing themselves into a corner. No one likes being cornered, and unfortunately we know what happens when you get backed into a corner...you strike back. Youth baseball follows MLB closely and they seem to feel their pitchers need the 8 warm-ups - if we as responsible members of youth baseball do not see a problem with a 8 warm-up pitch count, I see no reason to change it. I would be interested in hearing from the medical community on this issue. Go get'em Coach Wolforth - stick to your principles. Quote: ''stupid and irresponsible'' August 31, 2009 at 10:51:37 AM Why do this for the Elite32 teams? All pitchers, especially the stronger ones, i.e. elite, need more pitches to loosen up. There may not be any scientific basis to back this up but more pitches definitely won't hurt anyone's arm. Speeding up a game at the sacrifice of a players arm is just plain stupid and irresponsible. Quote: ''takes pride in bragging'' August 25, 2009 at 08:28:09 AM I have experienced the VERY same thing in AAU travel ball and Little League All-Stars. And it doesn't need to be a tournament policy to bite you. Just one insensitive, uneducated umpire who takes pride in bragging about how fast he can get a game in can unilaterally impose such an ignorant policy in any given game. This "movement" needs to become a broad one that indoctrinates baseball administrators and officials all over the country and across all formats to believe insufficient warm-up pitches is as inane as hitting without a batting helmet. Quote: ''taking the mound in relief needs at least 8 pitches'' September 2, 2009 at 05:56:15 AM Because of the many variables a pitcher should be given the opportunity for eight warm up pitches. Near the end of a game I often suggest to a starting pitcher that they only take 5 warm-up pitches; but it depends on the pitcher, their pitch count and level of fatigue. Clearly a position player taking the mound in relief needs at least 8 pitches. Protecting pitcher's arms so they can play again and perform at their highest level is our objective. Quote: ''the COACH should have been more OUTSPOKEN'' September 2, 2009 at 11:23:02 AM 1) I think the COACH should have been more OUTSPOKEN and Mr. Wollforth could have simply ENJOYED his son playing baseball. Quote: ''The Elite 32 has some of the most talented'' September 3, 2009 at 07:25:50 AM We need to protect our young pitchers. The Elite 32 has some of the most talented in the country and it would be a shame if we injured a child to hurry the game along. Poor move on the USSSA!!!! I hope everyone pushes USSSA to change this ruling. Quote: ''the greatest game but you get the greatest jerks'' September 1, 2009 at 01:39:12 PM This is not the only organization that has tried this. In one tournament three years ago a well respected 14 and under Atlanta organizatin reduced it to four. Our coach lodged a formal protest and exited our team off the field. We stayed on the premises for 30 minutes and met by a tournament official which said that tournaments are taking the stand about reduced warmups and that we would forfeit the game. Coach said no problem. Then we were escorted off the premises by a security guy. I guess so we would not spread our views. Have not run into this again until now. We were told that if the four pitches were not acceptable then we should foresee the need to substitute and warm up in preparation of a substitution. That means pulling our guy of the field to warm up. Not gonna do it. We just went to another tournament org.. Baseball is the greatest game but you get the greatest jerks that care nothing for kids in it too. Great going Coach Ron. Quote: ''The leaders involved should be asked to step down.'' September 2, 2009 at 06:59:32 AM As a high school baseball coach 12 years, and fed ball coach 11U 1 year, I think the handling of the situation by the USSSA was ridiculous. The leaders involved should be asked to step down. We live in america. We are free to voice our opinions, especially if they are as educated and complete as coach Wolforths. These tournaments generated thousands of $$$ for the organization, and to put kids health and safety at risk for a speed up rule is very troubling. Quote: ''the officials of the USSSA have good intentions'' September 1, 2009 at 10:27:00 PM I never cease to be amazed by those who want to do good and just can't seem to get it right. I have little doubt the officials of the USSSA have good intentions, but it is obvious they are misguided and are without quality counsel. Baseball is a game created without a time-keeper. The length of the game was and should be determined by the skill of the player; the length of the game should not be determined by impatient umpires, tournament officials trying to squeeze too many games in an allotted time, or an organization intent on increasing revenues. If we are intent on having less skilled players on the field, we should be prepared for games of longer duration. Quote: ''the team as a whole will suffer'' September 2, 2009 at 05:13:05 AM I am the father of a 19 yr. old Freshman College Pitcher, on a Baseball Scholarship. I have Coached since my son was 9 yrs. old, along with many other friends of mine. I really do not believe 8 pitches is enough, but I realize there has to be some kind of limit. Quote: ''The USSSA is supposed to be looking out for the kids'' August 27, 2009 at 12:00:32 PM I have two boys who play ball. I find it absolutely deplorable that the USSSA would lower the pitch warmups to 3 pitches. I am a coach and can't imagine telling my SS to come in mid inning and only allow 3 pitches before he had to fire real bullets. That is absolutely insane. These kids need the proper warmup so they do not hurt their arms. I keep strict pitch counts and pull my pitchers at 50 pitches to protect the little kids and make sure that I do my all I can to allow them to play for as long as their skill and passion allow. The USSSA is supposed to be looking out for the kids...not the almighty dollar. Making a profit is fine, it is the American way; however, I hope that it isn't at the risk of 9-12 year old CHILDREN!!!! Quote: ''their by-laws are not always enforced'' August 30, 2009 at 04:54:08 PM The past 4 years I have coached travel teams that have participated in the USSSA tournaments. I have found that the rules that they regulate in their by-laws are not always enforced at the tournament site. Because of this, I understand Mr. Wolforth's concern and frustration. As it stands today, our young pitchers are at so much risk. Quote: ''their egos are certainly an equal to USSSA'a beauracracy'' August 28, 2009 at 07:48:07 AM The USSSA ruling was silly and possibly dangerous...but probably no more dangerous than showcase teams playing in tournaments each week and pushing their pitchers to the limit with something "always on the line". I've come to the conclusion that travel ball, be it baseball, basketball or soccer, hasn't really helped our young athletes as much as it has lined the pockets of those who promote the tournaments. Learning is quickly kicked out of the equation when there is trophy to won. I don't know the Wolforths', but their egos are certainly an equal to USSSA'a beauracracy. I reread his story and was amazed how much he heaped praise on himself instead of sticking on topic. Quote: ''then you shouldn't be coaching'' September 1, 2009 at 03:41:16 PM My son is a pitcher and he would never be ready to pitch a game with three warm up pitches. Not only do they need to warm up properly but they need to prepare mentally too. If we were at tournament and he was told he had three pitches, I would of lost it. I'm glad Coach Wolforth was concerned enough to speak out. And if you're a coach and you're not concerned for your players, then you shouldn't be coaching. For an organization such as USSSA to implement such a careless rule shows that the kids are NOT their first priorty. Quote: ''There are other ways'' August 25, 2009 at 08:20:51 AM Sometimes those warm up pitches are a mental warm up as much or more than a physical warm up. There are other ways to speed up the game without taking a chance with young pitchers' arms. Quote: ''Three warm-ups is ridiculous'' Three warm-ups is ridiculous and cannot be good for a kid's arm. There are plenty of other ways to speed up the game. Besides, what's the rush. Baseball was meant to be played at a leisurely pace. Quote: ''throw to each of the bases'' September 2, 2009 at 01:02:16 PM If the pitcher is restricted to only 3 pitches, I will then have the pitcher throw to each of the bases, first,second, shortstop,then third, then I will have him warm up the the 3 alloted pitches to the catcher, as throwing to the bases is not considered a pitch. Will wait to see if I will be allowed to do this.second, shortstop,then third, then I will have him warm up the the 3 alloted pitches to the catcher, as throwing to the bases is not considered a pitch. Will wait to see if I will be allowed to do this. Quote: ''throwing too many warm up pitches'' August 25, 2009 at 09:14:24 AM It think that the USSSA should come to the table and have a reasonable discussion about the issue. Threats and litigation should be a last resort after all other communication has been exhausted. I think the situation dicates the number of warm up throws. If the pitcher has been warming up in the bullpen before going in, then the number of pitches should be less to warm up. But if you are bringing in a pitcher during an inning then they need more pitches to warm their arm up. I thought this was common knowdlege and most umpires will allow the pitcher more throws. In our little league we have had the opposite problem. Sometimes the umpire is chatting with the other coach or a friend and my pitcher is getting tired of throwing too many warm up pitches. Many times I have had to stop my pitcher and get the umpires attention to get on with the game. Quote: ''Time limits on games are goofy enough'' August 26, 2009 at 02:49:30 PM Unlike football, basketball or soccer, baseball is a game without a clock. The USSSA probably considers it's schedule extremely important but seriously, network and cable television deal with the nature of the game at a much higher cost per minute than anybody and they don't seek to impose rules that endanger the participants. Time limits on games are goofy enough with tie scores at the end of a game and bracket winners being decided by "runs against" and "runs scored." In a game where a walkoff bunt can make the difference, a statistical decision goes against the purity of the game. What it comes down to is "do it right or don't do it at all and do no harm!" Quote: ''two wrongs do not make a right'' August 25, 2009 at 09:01:35 AM I believe USSSA was wrong with the rule at the tournament, and RW responded appropriately (especially as the parent of an 11 yo boy), but he seems to have aggravated the situation with subsequent actions and writings. While I respect his expertise, motive and cause, he did threaten USSSA, and now two wrongs do not make a right. I've seen a lot of parents with rage in the eyes, especially at the higher levels of play, over a lot smaller issues. RW has lost his deserved respect in the eyes of USSSA over his actions. I encourage WebBall to get involved and bring some objectivity to the issue. Quote: ''umpires wish to be noticed'' August 25, 2009 at 10:15:06 AM It has become dreadfully apparent that umpires wish to be noticed during each and every game played at any level of baseball. I cannot remember a game whether viewed or participation that an umpire failed to make certain that all eyes (and cameras) were focused upon him/her. Coaching and or managing baseball at any level is difficult enough without having to factor in the ego of the officials that are PAID to be there. At most youth games, the umpires are the only ones PAID to be there. All others GIVE freely of their time. This warm-up pitch count ruling is just another way of insuring that umpires can pocket the money at a quicker rate! When umpires and/or administrators can provide imperical evidence to me that their decisions do NOT impact the safety of the players anymore than those that already occur, and that the decisions are not made to quicken the pace of the game, then, and only then might I rethink my current position. Quote: ''until the pitcher feels ready'' August 31, 2009 at 08:33:55 AM On #5. Should the warm-up be based on number of pitches or time? For me, "Until the pitcher feels ready" is the most important question/answer on the entire survey. This usually only takes a short period of time...a maximum of a few min., and should never be rushed. A game that lasts a few extra min (and can be an oficial time out, not counted against the amy max game time limit), should be a non-issue for leagues. Quote: ''USSSA has forgotten why they are in business.'' September 4, 2009 at 02:18:42 PM It seems that USSSA has forgotten why they are in business. Coach Wolforth was 100% correct challenging them on this rule. At this young age these youth athletes sometimes think they are indestructible. It's up to the coach's and officials to make the right decisions for their safety and health. Quote: ''USSSA needs to put safety ahead'' August 25, 2009 at 07:45:20 AM USSSA needs to put the safety of these young athletes ahead of their concern for keeping the games on schedule. I don't think the issue is performance but rather one of safety. I would hate to see any young athlete injured for the sake of keeping a tournement or game on schedule. The current limit of 8 pitches in 2 minutes is adequate if the young pitcher has been prepared for pitching in the weeks and months prior. Quote: ''veiled and un-veiled threats are going back and forth'' August 25, 2009 at 11:38:32 AM
Quote: ''vowed never again to participate'' August 27, 2009 at 02:20:19 PM I coach a 12u travel team in North Fl. Just so you know, earlier in this year my team was in a tournament run by U-trip. Because of what went on during the tournament (I won't go into details because it would take to long) my team and every 12u travel team at that tournament vowed never again to participate in a U-trip run tourney. So it was no surprise to me that this organization would put in place a stupid 3 pitch-only rule between innings. The people that run the USSSA tourneys are in it for the money and not for the concerns of the players. I totally agree with Ron and would have done exactly the same thing had I witnessed the three pitch limit. Quote: ''Warm-up is definitely needed ... How much? August 25, 2009 at 11:23:02 AM My question comes in on how WebBall might conduct such a survey. I'm sure there's as many opinions out there as there are "experts" on what the proper warm-up time or # is. Warm-up is definitely needed, otherwise you risk injuring the pitcher's arm. How much? It's going to vary by player. I've umpired before, and to say "the kid has to have at least 8-10 pitches before we can continue" invites 3 hr games, depending on the player. Some go out there and in 2 minutes can throw 15 pitches. Some go out there, scratch in the dirt, scratch their nose, call the catcher for a "conference" then throw one pitch. And do it all again for the second pitch. Quote: ''We collect college scholarships, not little league trophies.'' September 2, 2009 at 09:41:39 AM I am the general manager and head pitching instructor at Regal Athletic in Kansas City, Mo. We use Coach Wolforth's program to train players and teams year round. Coach was at our facility in Kansas City the week after this incident (read travesty) took place. We currently have over 20 team across all age groups that are house teams or sponsored teams. Our teams play in the local league and a few tournaments due to the league season ending early. In the best interest of our players, we have decided that none of them will participate in any USSSA sanctioned event until this is resolved to our satisfaction. I have pressed hard upon our coaches that a player should not be brought in from the field to pitch. Winning is not that important! If a kid is going to be entering the game as a pitcher, he must have at bare minimum, one inning to completely warm up to take the mound. We have, and will continue to replace any coach who does not adhere to our guidelines regarding pitchers. One of our little sayings is, "We collect college scholarships, not little league trophies." Thank you for your attention to this situation. - Mike Neal. Quote: ''We now support Triple Crown'' September 3, 2009 at 08:50:52 AM I searched out info on sore arms in baseball. Found Ron's info and applied it and sore arm issues went away. So I understand his passion on this issue. Our local baseball association explored becoming a USSSA sanctioned league for our competitive leagues not our recreational leagues. They wouldn't consider it unless we included the recreational leagues. Since we chose not include the recreation leagues they pulled all the tournaments from our facility. USSSA is all about the money, period. I support Ron and his efforts. We now support Triple Crown as much as we can. Quote: ''what about the batter?'' August 25, 2009 at 07:53:27 AM I would've said something then backed off after discovering I missed the rule discussion in the coaches meeting. I would have then tried to affect change in the policy after the game. I see a lot of concern for the pitcher (as their should be) but what about the batter? It takes my kids at least 5 pitches sometimes just get loose enough to find the zone at this level. I would hate to be the batter going up against a 70 mph cold pitcher! Quote: ''what is magical about 8 warm-up pitches?'' August 25, 2009 at 09:59:27 AM 1. I believe the 3 pitch limit is bad on several levels. Safety has already been cited (and is the most important), but effective pitch prep -- mound familarity, catcher positioning, comfort of pitcher's arm slot and downslope landing/feel, and discomfort of the batter (make him wait a little bit more...) all are part of a pre/in-between inning routines. Quote: ''Why risk injury to a young ballplayer'' August 31, 2009 at 03:41:54 AM When i was coaching my son's team a few years back (now in high school ball) I was so tired of USSSA and the way they ran things. I basically stopped playing them and only played Super Series. Seemed to be a better ran tournament and organization. Not to mention they were more consistent on the rules from park to park, tournament to tournament. On the subject at hand, if the half inning was long that pitcher coming back in to pitch will need time to loosen up again. Why risk injury to a young ballplayer just for the sake of time. that is stupid and adults only thinking of themselves not the players. Quote: ''you warm up to pitch, not pitch to warm up'' August 25, 2009 at 08:32:08 AM Please keep in mind that the rule says "If a sudden emergency causes a pitcher to be summoned into the game without any opportunity to warm up, the umpire-in-chief shall allow him as many pitches as the umpire deems necessary." As you know umpires like control. I believe you warm up to pitch, not pitch to warm up. If a pitcher does some exercises to get blood into the tendons and muscles of the shoulder and elbow/arm areas before he throws practice pitches, then 3 or 5 pitches is fine. My concern is that there is more chance for injury when pitching 'cold' (without stretching and getting blood to the shoulder/elbow/arm area's muscles and tendons)than throwing only 3 pitches after this pre-throwing 'warm-up' is complete. I would also think about pitch count. If your player throws 8 'warm-up' pitches, in a seven inning game that is as many as 56 extra pitches which takes a 95 pitch game to 151 pitch game. To me that is the real dnager; overuse. Three pitches with the correct pre-warming routine is fine. Three pitches takes the pitch count number down to 116 from 151 (assuming 95 is average 'in-play' pitch count)which is more manageable for longevity of your pitchers. Fifty six extra pitches may be too much. Comparably, do you give your catcher 3 or more throws to second or is he expected to throw to 2B in less than 2 seconds on a steal without the proper 'warm-up' routine? There is risk there also. I have actually only used 3-5 pitches for each pitcher used and each pitch thrown to the catcher, the catcher throws down to 2B every time. That ususlly takes about 1 to 1.5 minutes. Now I understand that the amount of these types of pitches are not in the same category as far as amounts, but it is just as risky and does as much damage to the shoulder if the cathers throw without the proper warm-up routine as well. Normal protocol dictates he only throw down after the last 'warm-up' pitch. I believe that isn't enough either. Quote: ''youth pitchers need more than 8 pitches'' August 27, 2009 at 11:20:45 AM I'm not sure how limiting the number of pitches speeds up the game. There is a set time limit, and unless the umpire is stopping the clock for pitching changes, the game still runs the same amount of time, no matter how many warm-ups the pitcher throws. I honestly think youth pitchers need more than 8 pitches to completely warm up (for pitching substitutions). MLB players get 8, and that's after they've already warmed up for several minutes in the bullpen. Most youth players don't have that luxury and are coming in from another position on the field, so even an 8 pitch limit is less warm-up time than what MLB pitchers actually get. My preference would be to have a 2 minute time limit for warm-ups (again, for pitching substitutions) if more than 30 minutes are left in the game. With 30 minutes or less left in the game, limit the warm-up time to 1 minute (to help prevent coaches from using warm-up time as a delay tactic late in the game). I am fine with an 8 pitch limit for pitchers who have already been in the game (the only exception being if it's been a long half-inning/weather delay/etc. and there is no place on the sidelines for the pitcher to stay warm when his team is in the dugout). If the pitcher wants less than 8 pitches, that decision should be left up to him. |
This adaptation of the Q&A keyword engine is due to the volume of great comments received in reaction to the USSSA decision to limit pre-inning mound warm-up pitches to just 3, and the subsequent suspension of Ron Wolforth's family because of his reaction to the risk factor to young arms. For full details, click here. For an explanation of how to reveal and hide the quotes click here. Normally we take the time to edit viewer response. but this time we could not do so. Also, few names appear because we promised anonymity. If you see your own quote and are willing to have you name appear, contact us, but it must be through the live chat or quick email icon so we can verify IP addresses. |
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